GPS signal back on the arrowhead?

[Thoka]

Here are two pictures from last evening in Düsseldorf, photographed off the AA display. I apologize for the not-so-great quality, but it shows the core problem:

It’s no longer the tip of the arrow that lets you know where you are, and the arrow blocks your view of the situation. In the tight street situation, I had barely any orientation when looking at the display and promptly went the wrong way.

I think the problem has been described enough here in the thread, and I too would like to have the position at the tip back, gladly even as a setting if that solves the problem comprehensively for all users.

The arrow simply has a dual function: at the tip, it shows me where I am, and when moving, also the direction. When stationary, one of these functions is already lost, and with the position in the middle, practically the second one as well.

With the position at the tip, the longitudinal direction of the arrow tangential to the route / street, it was the perfect solution over the last few years, couldn’t have been better.

@t00thl355

Für mich fällt die Entscheidung wohin nicht 10m vor der Kreuzung, sondern etwas früher.

For me neither, an occasional glance at the map to see if an event is coming up is fine. But that’s exactly where the rub is: if I come to a spot that isn’t entirely clear, I only have this brief glance at the map, virtually as a still image. And that has to hit the mark.
I don’t constantly cross-reference between sat nav and the road.

By now it must be around 800 - 1,000 km that I’ve driven like this, 50/50 motorcycle / car.
I don’t know why there is a general assumption that the arrow has to be in the geometric center; in my view, it brings the disadvantage of obscuring things.

@schippy

Aber keine dynamische Lösung abhängig von der Geschwindigkeit bitte.

Ditto, I don’t need a dynamic solution.

[Andy2]

also just tested in urban areas, I always zoom out a bit to get a better overview (dynamic then set to “off”) and while that makes it better, it’s still not good.

V_L_g_ (VzG)

P.S. Android on AA Carpuride 7"

[SmurfyPanda]

I still think it’s a matter of getting used to, perhaps making the arrow smaller or something. When I switched to Kurviger, I overshot several intersections as I expected the center of the arrow to be my location. But I didn’t try the new Kurviger update yet.

[Thoka]

It would also be interesting to know how people switching from Kurviger to another app feel about it, if they were used to “top-tier” before. There are probably very, very few of them

[shorty]

I think the summit was „summit“

[Viola]

There are several pros and cons regarding the arrowhead in the discussion.

To better gauge interest, the topic has been moved to “Planned Feature” and is now open for voting.

Please cast your vote at the top left next to the post title.

[Toffel]

I’m also the conservative arrow type, meaning the tip points to the position.

Everything has been said and shown, and as far as I know the team, once alignments are made (Android/iOS), things are given some time first. In that sense, it’s legitimate and good to put it to a vote.

Perhaps a suggestion that could ease the confusion about the position: “Where on this arrow is that ominous middle that I can quickly grasp without firing up the heavy machinery in my head?”

A simple, self-explanatory dot might already help.

[Serpentinenfanatiker]

I’d rather skip all the other votes and cast all 8 votes right here.

That’s exactly what happens when you only listen to a few people. Because often the majority are super happy with how things are.

Haven’t been able to test it yet, but I can’t use a navigation app that keeps leading me astray because, on one hand, it implies I’ve already missed my turn, and on the other hand, my exact position on the map is partly obscured.

I already quit using another one for that exact reason.

People are asking for so much unnecessary bells and whistles that have nothing to do with basic navigation in my opinion. I don’t care, I just want a simple app and planning tool specifically for that.

Just please don’t make it worse (“verschlimmbessern”).

The next newbie using the navigation will think that’s where the end of the triangle is. Then it gets moved again.

I’ll take it a step further: in the age of beloved AI, you’ve got to show that you’re ahead of the curve.

Why not put the actual point behind the triangle? Okay, maybe that’s exaggerating a bit.

But honestly, the triangle is supposed to symbolize my vehicle.

As long as no part of my vehicle has reached the intersection, no part of the triangle should indicate that it has. Simple as that.

So please

[schippy]

@Toffel

A simple, self-explanatory dot could already help.

Yeah, but not in the middle of the arrow. That doesn’t change the fact that in some cases the map in front of me is covered.

But as a compromise (which I don’t need): Just put a (very small) dot at the tip of the arrow, then everyone knows that’s the position.

[Toffel]

I’ve made my “pro arrowhead” stance clear, the arguments convince me. The idea with the auxiliary point on the arrow is a different one.

@boldtrn

Grund für diese Beschwerden ist wohl auch,

and

@boldtrn

Wir haben jetzt das Verhalten von iOS und Android erstmal vereinheitlicht.

I read that as: “There’s a perceived problem. We’re trying to change it in the direction where there are fewer complaints”.

The topic was quickly split off by @Viola, presumably because a larger discussion was expected.

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Now, let’s not call the thing an arrow, but a position marker. Let’s turn the arrow into a thin circle with a crosshair. Everything beneath it would be visible. The crosshair also gets an arrowhead showing the direction. Boom, solved.

The actual problem is probably the arrow and my many years of life experience regarding how an arrow works and my habit of posting screenshots here. The arrowhead points at something, but doesn’t cover it up; that wouldn’t be helpful at all.

What was interesting to me was this, I had to read it a few times.

@SmurfyPanda

When I switched to Kurviger, I overshot several intersections as I expected the center of the arrow to be my location.

Whether all navigation apps do it that way or not—there are users who are “flexible” when interpreting an arrow. There’s no right or wrong there, it’s more of a “that’s how it is, I don’t care, I just need to know” situation.

Why isn’t that questioned and instead used as an uncritical argument? An arrow is an arrow and the tip points to something. A different symbol like a crosshair marks the center. And just because others treat an arrow like a crosshair doesn’t make it wrong to use an arrow like an arrow. Using an arrow like a crosshair just feels wrong to me.

Anyway: The suggestion to put a dot in the middle of the arrow is meant to clearly tell the user what they are seeing and how to interpret it. One is the position like a crosshair, the other is the direction at that exact moment. And in doing so, one or the other will wonder how that feels, i.e., whether it’s wrong, right, or doesn’t matter.

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(Just saying. Even previously, the arrowhead didn’t point to the technical position, but to an imaginary point, possibly offset forward where my eye looks, matching up with the environment, also depending on speed. Testing with 3.6.6 at an intersection’s stop line points to the stop line for me, so about 2m further ahead than the smartphone’s position, which feels right to me.)

[BlueQ]

Now look what I’ve started

But I’m really happy about the number of votes per 24h and all the great arguments.

And that having this discussion with the developers is even possible

I also think this is top-notch

[Hobbyfahrer]

I’ve taken another look at the discussion about the position of the GPS point within the navigation arrow from a technical perspective.

Fundamentally, a distinction must be made between the actual GPS position and its graphical representation. Whether the position anchor is located at the tip of the arrow or in the middle of the navigation symbol has no influence on the accuracy of the position determination.

On my Garmin Zūmo XT3, for example, the position anchor is also located in the middle of the navigation arrow. This representation is therefore by no means unusual. However, I was unable to find a binding standard for the position of the anchor within a navigation symbol.

The crucial factor is the correct positioning of the entire arrow.

For example, if the determined GPS position lies in the middle of an intersection, the tip must also lie exactly there if anchored to the arrow tip. With a center anchor, the middle of the arrow must accordingly lie on the center of the intersection.

Both variants thus display the exact same position. Only the graphical extent of the arrow changes relative to the intersection.

The claim that positioning at the arrow tip fundamentally enables more precise navigation is therefore not technically justified. The GPS accuracy, potential delays in the position display, and the processing of the position data remain unaffected by this.

On the other hand, I can understand the criticism that larger navigation arrows can obscure road layouts and turns at certain map scales.

Here I see two possible improvements:

1. A small, clearly visible dot, for example in red, indicates the actual position anchor. This could optionally be located at the arrow tip or in the middle of the arrow.

2. Adjustable transparency of the navigation arrow, for example with 100 or 60 percent opacity. This keeps the underlying streets and intersections more visible.

The combination of a clearly marked position anchor and a partially transparent navigation arrow seems more sensible to me than a fundamental commitment to a specific arrow position.

Ultimately, the question of whether one prefers the tip or the middle is primarily a matter of accustomed representation. Both variants are technically correct as long as the position anchor is implemented correctly.

Thhe following graphics illustrate the differences. In all four examples, the GPS point is in the exact same spot in the middle of the intersection.

For me personally, the centered display with 60% opacity would be ideal.

[achimf]

And what if you have to turn right at the intersection? Then the orientation of your arrow won’t match the center display!
I don’t understand why this was changed for what is probably a very small portion of users.

[Hobbyfahrer]

@achimf

And what if you have to turn right at the intersection? Then the orientation of your arrow won’t match the center display!

Please explain what’s wrong there. The arrow doesn’t change when you’re standing at the intersection, but only when there’s a change in position, and it doesn’t matter where the anchor point is. Besides, the route overview now makes it much clearer where you’re heading.

@achimf

I don’t understand why this was changed for what is probably a very small group of users.

What is your assumption based on?

The point is to understand why this is so crucially important to some users. Having a setting option might therefore be desirable.

However, I’m curious to see how many complaints will roll in when GPS inaccuracies make the position of the arrowhead much more noticeable.

Unfortunately, one problem with the voting here in the forum is that you can’t vote against something, because only then would an objective assessment be possible.

[rallemml]

A real voting tool would be nice…

So we have to do it old-school, oh well. I’m also in favor of positioning it at the arrowhead — anything else doesn’t really make sense from a neutral standpoint anyway.

[schippy]

@Hobbyfahrer

I’m curious how many complaints we’ll get when the position of the arrowhead stands out much more due to GPS inaccuracies.

It’s a fact that there are measurement inaccuracies due to technical reasons.
Therefore, repositioning an arrow whose tip in all other applications points precisely at a specific point cannot be the solution.

[schippy]

@Hobbyfahrer

Unfortunately, one problem with the voting here in the forum is that you can’t vote against something, because only then would an objective assessment be possible.

However, anyone can write a text here saying that they aren’t satisfied with the arrowhead. So far, only you have done that, unless I’ve missed something.

[Thoka]

@Hobbyfahrer

I am curious, though, how many complaints will come when the position of the arrowhead stands out much more due to GPS inaccuracies.

Up to version 3.6.6, it was like that for Android. That must have been about 3 years by now.
If there were any inaccuracies, they didn’t bother me or lead to bad navigation.
Giving this accuracy, or technical inaccuracy if you will, a cover-up to obscure it doesn’t make it any better either.

@Hobbyfahrer

What is your assumption based on?

I think concrete figures are only in Robin’s safe, and this assumption of „few users“ was also recently cited as an argument by the opposing side.

In the forum, I haven’t consciously noticed any problems with lagging. Robin’s arguments for „Center“ are on the table, and here arguments for „Tip“ are gathering, which I find equally justified and well-reasoned.

@Hobbyfahrer

One problem with the votings here in the forum is unfortunately that you cannot vote against it, because only then would an objective assessment be possible.

Of course you can start a counter-vote, but you could have done that in recent years, back in the „Tip“ days . And whether it would be objective then?

[Hobbyfahrer]

@Thoka

And whether it’s objective then too?

A poll, like the one you can set up in the GS Forum, for example, is definitely more objective.

Then, for example, you would have the option to choose:

Great

Middle

Neutral

However, I also think that Kurviger knows its users better through user surveys than we might suspect here.

What surprises me a bit in this context is that this request hasn’t been made by any Apple user so far.

[boldtrn]

Thank you for the discussion here in the thread. We take your feedback seriously.

Personally, I am also a fan of the arrowhead, so I totally understand your reactions.

However, the reality is that practically all navigation apps (that we know of) place the user’s location at the center of the arrow. I have prepared several screenshots for you to show this. For this, I “faked” my location, so it is 100% identical in all screenshots. I am virtually right in the middle of the intersection. To my knowledge, all the apps used are running on their default settings.

TomTom:

HERE WeGo:

Sygic:

OsmAnd:

Locus:

Kurviger 3.6.7:

Kurviger 3.6.6:

Google Maps also has the location in the center of the arrow, unfortunately I cannot take a screenshot with the faked location here.

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Regardless of this, I naturally understand that many of you have gotten used to the previous display and I completely see the advantages that positioning at the arrowhead offers. However, as the default display, it doesn’t really make much sense for us right now. As you can clearly see in the screenshots, other apps behave differently, and this display causes the location in Kurviger to be perceived as inaccurate. We are looking into the matter.